China is mass-producing hypersonic missiles for $99,000(kdwalmsley.substack.com)

179 points by zdw 10 hours ago | 141 comments

  • magicalist 9 hours ago
    This is blogspam based on a tweet of the company's promo video[1] in November and some speculation by a guy on Chinese state TV[2]. As far as I can find there's no evidence since then that these have entered production, mass or otherwise. It was doubted at the time they could hit these costs in production, and there hasn't been any news since.

    [1] https://xcancel.com/CNSpaceflight/status/1993158707056984359

    [2] https://archive.is/VLO7U

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    • jsw97 9 hours ago
      Yes. I have no idea if this is technologically plausible at this point but it doesn’t make sense strategically. Why would China allow something this dangerous and IP-intensive to be commercialized? We don’t sell our nuclear weapons tech, for example. (I assume.) And the thought that they would want this in the hands of unstable actors, however they are currently aligned, is a little silly. This feels more like a mistake, possibly even a scam.
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      • whatsupdog 8 hours ago
        You underestimate both China's production capability and their desire to destabilize the south Asian region, so they can step in to take control. They have been arming Pakistan to the teeth against India. They even sold them the nuclear weapons tech. They don't care.
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        • defrost 6 hours ago
          Both the US and China sold nuclear power technology to Pakistan, as I recall France also agreed to sell nuclear power tech to Pakistan .. in a deal that fell through because of something (haven't checked history) in France's domestic politics scene(?).

          All three countries have denied providing nuclear weapons tech to Pakistan - there is credible history to account for both Pakistan and India to have independantly developed enrichment programs and weapons on their own*.

          All things are possible, a plausible explanation for the flurry of accusations against China from 2000 onwards from both the US State Dept. and India was the bald fact that the US, the premier global atomic watchdog, was caught absolutely pants down and blindsided by the events of 1998** ... India detonated a series of nuclear weapons tests and Pakistan responded within 30 days with a slightly longer series ( 5 blasts Vs six in response .. IIRC )

          * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_d...

          ** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokhran-II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagai-I

          U.S. Intelligence and India’s Nuclear Tests: Lessons Learned - https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-672.html

            The U.S. Intelligence Community did not have advance knowledge that India intended to conduct nuclear tests beginning on May 11, 1998.
    • pseudohadamard 4 hours ago
      It sounds like marketing hype. The term "hypersonic" is so vague as to be almost meaningless, for example the V2 was technically a hypersonic missile. Can it usefully maneuver at hypersonic speeds? Can it track a target at hypersonic speeds? Without further evidence I'm going to assume the answer is "no".

      Also, as the Iranians have recently demonstrated, the way to get get past someone's defences is to deploy multiple warheads (and a pile of random debris) from a cheap missile, not to bet on exotic hypersonic weapons.

  • exabrial 10 hours ago
    Real or not, this is probably the future. Lockheed execs want combat to be a distant exchange of multi-million dollar missiles. As shown in Ukraine, people actually fighting for their lives will wreck a $300million weapon with a slingshot.
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    • wahern 9 hours ago
      Not hypersonic, but there are upstart defense companies building and selling these types of low-cost weapons. See, e.g., Anduril's $200,000 Barracuda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracuda-M

      Big firms like Lockheed nominally have similar products in the pipeline. See, e.g., https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/2025/cmmt... Though given how long they've been in development one wonders if they're slow walking these things until competition forces them to commit.

      I don't really follow the defense industry, but I imagine building cheap missiles isn't that hard. Rather, the difficult and expensive aspect would likely be the systems integrations (targeting, tracking, C&C, etc), especially in a way that let's the military rapidly cycle in new weapons without having to upgrade everything else. OTOH, if and when that gets truly fleshed out, firms like Lockheed might start to lose their moat, so there's probably alot of incentive to drag their feet and limit integration flexibility, the same way social media companies abhor federated APIs and data mobility. And if integration is truly the difficult part, I'm not sure what to make of weapons like the YKJ-1000 or Barracuda. Without the integration are they really much better than $100 drones?

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      • XorNot 8 hours ago
        The point of low cost weapons is to give you options on high intensity warfare: namely your high cost weapons take out air defense capability, so you can stop using them and use cheaper more numerous systems to hit the now undefended targets.

        The other benefit is just complicating air defense: put a lot of incoming in the air that can't be ignored, and makes it harder to find the higher spec systems mixed in - e.g. stealth systems when there's a lot of unstealthy platforms or munitions also attacking are going to be much harder to find.

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        • tharkun__ 6 hours ago

              namely your high cost weapons take out air defense capability, so you can stop using them and use cheaper more numerous systems to hit the now undefended targets.
          
          That makes no sense to me. Why would I spend millions times, dunno how many do you need for a guaranteed kill for an S-400, if you could spend hundreds of thousands on cheaper ways to kill the same S-400, while the S-400 still defends itself with millions worth of its own missiles?

          That's precisely what Ukraine was/is doing and has developed. The West provided lots of military support, including the US of course, but way not enough as we can see now play out in even the US itself vs. Iran. They developed cheap drones that can shoot down cheaper Shaheds. Shaheds that are way too cheap to use regular interceptors for. But even cheaper drones tip the scales back.

          Why would I want to waste Tomahawks 1:1 vs. S-400 interceptors, if I can kill it with a much cheaper drone swarm?

          Not saying those precise conditions/weapons exist today. I have no idea. But if they did, why would I still waste my high cost weapons.

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          • 3eb7988a1663 5 hours ago
            Agreed. Start with the low cost munitions in a zergling rush. Maybe it gets through, maybe it does not, but the defenders will still have to expend their interceptors. Only if the low cost stuff proves ineffective, follow-on with the better equipment.

            Quantity has a quality all its own.

          • XorNot 4 hours ago
            Because your low cost weapons will be intercepted by their low cost weapons.

            The enemy gets a say in your plans, and is much more likely to have low cost weapons available then high cost ones.

            The interceptor for a SHAHED is a quadcopter which doesn't need to fly as far or carry as much payload. Anyone can build this.

            The interceptor for an Iskander ballistic missile is a Patriot interceptor: literally nothing else can successfully stop it reliably. Only the US can build this.

            If your attacking systems are cheap, then the enemy can field just as many: Russia has a lot of drones in Ukraine now too, they were just playing catch up.

            "The next war" won't have surprise drones as a problem, it'll have highly developed and optimized drone and counter drone systems.

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            • tharkun__ 4 hours ago
              Not quite the scenario from my parent. They said "high cost weapons taking out air defenses". Whatever the US equivalent of an Iskander would be (I used a Tomahawk as an example), the S-400 (i.e. Patriot "equivalent") would be used to defend against it at first/in his scenario.

              If you want to turn it around, sure. Let's see how you'd want to take out a Patriot: high cost weapons, like an Iskander might try it? Costs about as much as a Tomahawk? Would need multiple ones, because the Patriot would defend itself against even multiple ones? But the Patriots cost as much and you want multiple interceptors for each Iskander sent its way?

              What if I could send, for less money/resources, a drone swarm that also takes out the Patriot or at least expends more money/resources in interceptors shot from it, than I had to spend on the drone swarm?

              I totally agree, it's "just a race". If I build an offensive drone swarm for $x, which is less than your high cost interceptors, you better build an "anti drone whatever thingie" (which might be anti-drone drone swarms) that's even cheaper.

              But, thanks, essentially you're agreeing with me: Don't use your high cost stuff to take out SAMs and then use cheap drones. Instead, use cheaper stuff to swarm it out of existence. Just gotta be faster at being cheaper. Doesn't matter if you're the attacker or defender.

              Zerg vs. Protoss.

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              • XorNot 3 hours ago
                "what if I just had a better system with no downsides or logistical costs that was also cheaper".

                In reality: Ukraine reliably downs Shaheds using a mix of low cost technologies.

                They mostly can't defend against ballistic missiles without high cost interceptors.

                The Shaheds could do a lot of damage to the Patriot site if they could hit it...but they never get anywhere near it. That's the point: your low cost system does not have the capability to threaten the high cost one.

                And in all this you've forgotten that attacking the SAM site is only being done to enable other operational objectives. The Patriot battery is defending targets many times it's value, including the logistics and launch sites of all those low cost defensive systems - or the logistics and launch sites of your own low cost offensive systems.

                To the article: the Tomahawk missile costs about $2 million per shot. Assuming this article is true, the missile in question gives you maybe a 20:1 cost advantage...but can it do the same mission? Does it have the same range, or targeting, or precision? If you cannot fire these from the same range as a tomahawk, or they don't realiably hit targets, then they can be substantially worse for a much higher logistics cost to deploy (perhaps total: the truck blowing up because you had to drive it to the front line is rather a problem).

        • runtype 5 hours ago
          I think in recent conflicts we are also seeing the opposite - low-cost munitions and drones can be deployed in such large numbers that they exhaust existing supplies of interceptors, and since those interceptors are more expensive than the munitions they're intercepting and cannot be replenished as quickly, they can force resource exhaustion and compete disproportionally in the economic and supply line domain of warfare.

          This is a classic "you show up prepared for the last war"

    • epistasis 9 hours ago
      > wreck a $300million weapon with a slingshot.

      I don't think "slingshot" is the right analogy here. There is a big change towards intelligent, small, and cheap drones. If it were just a slingshot, other countries could pick up what Ukraine is doing in no time, but they can't. Instead, there's an absolutely massive industry behind Ukraine's drone manufacturing, growing at 2x per year, which no other nation can currently match, including Russia.

      The drone manufacturing has gone so exponential that they now have a shortage of drone operators. It's completely changed the war in the past few months, with Russia now losing ground, at basically zero additional Ukrainian casualties, and with Russia continuing to have massive ground casualties from sending poorly trained troops to die while hiding in a 30 mile wide kill zone ruled by drones.

      The quantity of drones allows new tactics, reminiscent of rolling wave artillery. And deployment of a wide variety of types of drones has led to the depletion of Russian anti-air defense in both occupied Ukraine and in Russia itself, allowing the destruction of much of Russia's oil infrastructure. The recent Baltic port hit will be felt for a long long time, and nearly completely neutralizes the lifting of sanctions on Russia. All from novel weapons, which are decidedly more sophisticated than slingshots both in their construction and application. And the US is way behind, and too proud to let Ukraine share their knowledge and capabilities.

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      • bigiain 9 hours ago
        > I don't think "slingshot" is the right analogy here.

        I think it's perfect - a very valid "David vs Goliath" reference.

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        • larkost 9 hours ago
          Note that it is wrong to think that David was at a disadvantage. I know that is not how the story is taught today, but slingshot troops of that age we the snipers of their age: very deadly (not at the range of a modern sniper, but...).

          If the fight between them was started at some distance, the David should have been the expected winner by pretty much everyone on the field. Think "bright a club to a gun fight" sort of vibes.

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          • bluGill 8 hours ago
            David had a sling, not a slingshot. They are very different tools. slings need more skill, but are easy for a shepard to learn. (I suspect more powerful as well but I'm not an expert)
        • epistasis 9 hours ago
          Ah, I hadn't thought of that sort of slingshot! I was thinking more "primitive rock throwing."
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          • zer00eyz 9 hours ago
            There is also a cost aspect of it as well.

            The long range drones that are being shot down are the "expensive products" of a military industrial complex.

            The US solution to this problem is even more expensive.

            For the cost the Ukraine's solution might as well be a rock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_(drone)

      • wiseowise 9 hours ago
        > If it were just a slingshot, other countries could pick up what Ukraine is doing in no time, but they can't. Instead, there's an absolutely massive industry behind Ukraine's drone manufacturing, growing at 2x per year, which no other nation can currently match, including Russia.

        I'm all for good guys winning, but what are your sources? And why do you think Russia can't match Ukraine in this regard?

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        • tartoran 9 hours ago
          I think whatever advantage Russia has (size and resources) is being squandered by corruption and incompetence.
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          • throwaway85825 7 hours ago
            In terms of russias strategic goals Russia lost in month one when they pulled out of kyiv and admitted regime change wasn't going to happen. Everything since then has just been a very expensive face saving exercise and a hope thay somehow Ukraine would collapse.
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            • tartoran 2 hours ago
              It's been getting worse and worse lately, they have huge losses, hard to even think about it. With oil output dropped by 40% in the latest Ukrainian attacks on oil infra, it looks like they will probably miss out on the sanctions relief Trump handed them. Yeah, Ukraine is also quite well bruised up but somehow they are more competent to fight. But by the time the war ends, even if they won it'd only be their symbolic liberation victory because economically it won't look to good, also bad for EU, possibly a global crisis.
        • epistasis 8 hours ago
          There's no single source, it's basically all the war reporting. My claims are not contentious. Even Russia's war bloggers are repeating the same now.

          Russia could, in theory, use it's greater number of people towards producing drones. But it hasn't. Russia could, in theory, train its new recruits properly before throwing them into hopeless situations. But it hasn't. Russia could, in theory, operate by rewarding production contracts to the most capable teams rather than the ones with the best connections. But it hasn't. And even if Russia does, they'll have to catch up. They could!

          Even the US could, in theory, start learning from Ukraine or even following in its footsteps, independently, but it hasn't.

          Ukraine is fighting for its life, it's on Death Ground, in the terms of Sun Tzu. In Russia, perhaps only Putin is on Death Ground, and even then, there's many ways Putin could give up on the war and still stay in power. That produces far different results in people. And the cultures of Ukraine and Russia are fundamentally incompatible, which also produces very different results from people.

      • zer00eyz 9 hours ago
        You're talking about the hardware. That is critical.

        But what's evolving even faster is the software. And in real world use cases.

        They arent paying for tank models and people to run around and try to chase to "test". They are very literally doing it live, with live fire testing day in and day out.

        Furthermore they are rewarding results on both ends. Successful operators get to buy gear for kills in an amazon like store (talk about gamification). And there are paths for "innovation" to make its way to the front quickly: see https://united24media.com/war-in-ukraine/how-a-ukrainian-gam... for an example.

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        • epistasis 5 hours ago
          Precisely, they both go hand in hand.

          Ukrainian society is also very bottom up, and individual units are empowered to procure what they want, based on price or quality, from online systems that operate like Amazon. No general issue, just customization all the way to soldiers getting to choose from a wide variety of drone models from many manufacturers, and the manufacturers are competing to supply to the needs of individual units:

          https://youtu.be/zlSMz_vtSwg

          US military leadership is all about empowering units to solve problems on their own, at least whenever I read their books that's the message I get. Ukraine seems to have taken it even further.

      • papa0101 9 hours ago
        absolute drivel, zero-substantiated, zero-value.
    • torginus 9 hours ago
      Yeah, there's the Flamingo, Ukraine's cruise missile that uses old turbofan engines near the end of the service lives. But Ukrainians mentioned, that they're looking to mass produce low-cost engines using steel for their blades instead of exotic alloys, as used on most aircraft engines. Of course even advanced steel alloys cant survive the close to 1000C temps for long, but a cruise missile needs to fly for like 3-4 hours, not thousands. Probably a lot else can be simplified in the design, as turbofans are conceptually very simple, much simpler than ICE.
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      • throwaway85825 7 hours ago
        A turbo fan may be simpler but the tolerances are much tighter.
    • throwaway85825 7 hours ago
      People are taking the absolute wrong lesson from Ukraine. The cheap drone munition isn't the innovation, it's the supply chain that can rapidly iterate.
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      • morkalork 6 hours ago
        I'd argue WW2 was when that innovation happened. The spitfire plane had something like 20+ design iterations over the course of the war.
    • jollyllama 9 hours ago
      So, a return to cold-war style missile races, except there are actual slugfests from time to time because the nuclear threat no longer has gravity.
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      • epistasis 9 hours ago
        I think it's led to a huge advantage for defenders. Nuclear weapons favor attackers, or deterrence. But massive drone waves allow defense of large areas with a very small number of people. It's not a race to build bigger missiles that go longer distances and are harder to shoot down, it's largely a coordination, communication, logistics, and information management problem.
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        • nozzlegear 8 hours ago
          I don't quite follow, can you explain a little bit about how drone waves allow for defense of large areas? I can see how they help in offensive attacks, but as far as I can tell they don't seem to have helped defend Iran from the US and Israel; they're just helping Iran lash out after taking a beating.

          (Not trying to be smarmy, just genuinely curious.)

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          • epistasis 6 hours ago
            well two things: 1) Iran doesn't have much in terms of drones, but they are not using them nearly as much as even Russia, much less Ukraine. Look at US bases in the area: there's been a few flyovers by drones but no serious attacks, but US bases haven't even put up nets or anything to protect resources, they still have radar and high value targets just sitting out in the open unattacked. 2) Iran still hasn't lost any territory, that's the defense I'm talking about. The US and Israel can expend all their bombs, but that doesn't bring down Iran's government or lose them any land. At most it loses them economic power. So I don't think Iran demonstrates much at all about the modern use of drones.
        • jollyllama 9 hours ago
          Hypersonics would not appear to be definitively offensive or defensive.
    • creddit 8 hours ago
      Maybe I'm crazy but isn't Ukraine also begging for the multi-million dollar weapons? Are Patriots and ATACMS not seen as highly valuable to them?

      If anything, it's clear that a strategy of massing low-cost ballistic missiles and low-cost drones is a great way to provide hurt to neighbors (and maybe low-cost ICBMs will mean hurt to the world) but the US is proving in Iran and Ukraine, to a lesser extent, is proving in its defense that highly capable advanced systems are able to provide extreme offensive and defensive abilities.

      Ukraine is also showing the value of low-cost drones in defense against drones! Something the US notably does not have and is suffering very real consequences for it.

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      • timcobb 7 hours ago
        > ... isn't Ukraine also begging for the multi-million dollar weapons? Are Patriots ...

        Yeah they want Patriots but they want them for taking out relatively expensive Russian ballistic missiles. If those ballistics/hypersonics start costing $100k, Patriots will not be a viable defense against this.

    • stinkbeetle 5 hours ago
      Actually fighting for your life doesn't bestow any superhuman powers. Russians there are fighting for their lives too. There's enough videos of people in Ukraine being killed by $1000 drones, $100 landmines, and 50 cent bullets.

      It's just the way war has always turned. Battleships were obsoleted by airplanes 1/1000th their cost. Machineguns and trenches ended cavalry. Arms companies still profit in war and people still die in them, doesn't matter what an individual gun or missile costs.

    • TacticalCoder 10 hours ago
      [flagged]
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      • exabrial 10 hours ago
        I think you're misreading my comment and attacking a scarecrow. I've never defended Iran in any way nor did I say anything about Iran in my original comment.

        I'm purely referring to that fact that the future of warfare is becoming asymmetric again because the US Military Industrial complex can only deliver extremely expensive weapons, which can easily be wrecked by stone age ones.

        That is it.

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        • gpderetta 9 hours ago
          Even in 2026, wars are won by the side that can shoots more bullets (or artillery rounds, or rockets, or missiles, or drones). They better be cheap.
      • throwaw12 10 hours ago
        > kill 30 000+ of their own

        Hasbara or do you have credible facts?

      • sephamorr 10 hours ago
        Well, the IRGC folks actually fighting probably don't have a luxurious future in a reformed Iran, so they might not be far off fighting for their lives.
      • Forgeties79 9 hours ago
        Take a few days away from the internet man. I mean it with all sincerity.
  • janalsncm 9 hours ago
    This is what people should keep in mind when the statistic about US defense spending being higher than the next N nations combined or whatever it is now. If I buy a 30k Prius, and you spend 300k on a different car,

    1) that doesn’t mean you can drive 10x as fast and

    2) maybe you just bought an overpriced Prius, perhaps a gold plated one

    This is a more general problem in politics, where the overall budget being allocated is reported rather than the practical result.

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    • basch 4 hours ago
      To the point that defense spending prevents us from publishing an accurate financial statement for soon to be 30 years running.

      The Government Accountability Office (GAO) issued a disclaimer of opinion on the U.S. government’s FY 2025 financial statements — the 29th consecutive year it has been unable to determine whether the statements are fairly presented. This is primarily due to serious, ongoing financial management problems at the Department of Defense and weaknesses in accounting for interagency transactions.

    • torginus 9 hours ago
      Yeah, you often read stories on the internet about how the SR-71 could easily outrun the MIG-25, proving US technological superiority, but those don't really take into account that there was like a dozen made of the former, with titanium hulls and exotic engineering. While there were more than a thousand made of the cheap, steel hulled MIG 25
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      • nl 8 hours ago
        Not sure about the comparison to the SR-71, but the more interesting comparison was with the US XB-70[1] which ended up cancelled but the MIG-25 was designed to intercept[2].

        Ironically the XB-70 was also stainless steel - but it still was pretty exotic. It partly relied on compression-lift and highly corrosive fuel to cruise at Mach 3 (in 1961!).

        Edit: Wikipedia diving after writing that led me to the Sukhoi T-4 which was the Russian response to the XB-70. Only a prototype, but this one was titanium and it is an amazing, drop-nose machine [3]

        [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie

        [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25#Backgr...

        [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_T-4

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        • torginus 8 hours ago
          I think while these kinds of projects are cool, but I think the point of my parent comment is that volume matters. If you can do something, its interesting and great for bragging rights, but making and operating thousands of airframes (especially considering the breakneck speed with which technology evolved, timeframes were very compressed!).

          While the SR71 was more capable than the MIG, if the Air Force would've wanted to build a thousand of those in 5 years, it would've been impossible, not to mention the maintenance burden.

          So while the planes you mentioned might've been more capable, in a real conflict they wouldn't have mattered much, as they could not have sustained a volume of strikes to be relevant.

          Interesting how quality and quantity have changed over the years: in WW2, giant factories pumped out airplanes on endless production lines by the tens of thousands, yet those planes couldn't drop bombs accurately.

          In contrast, 4th gen fighters were made in still significant volumes, and their smart bombs could hit a target accurately enough so that a hundred pound bomb can do the job you would need a WW2 B-29 to drop its entire payload for.

          I think that was a peak in quality X quantity in aviation.

          Yes, modern jets have even more tech, and stealth and stuff, but their complexity and and difficulty of manufacture doesn't offset the drop in volume.

          So quality went up, but quantity went way down, and as a result their total effectiveness is less than the generation they're supposed to replace.

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          • nl 4 hours ago
            > Yes, modern jets have even more tech, and stealth and stuff, but their complexity and and difficulty of manufacture doesn't offset the drop in volume.

            > So quality went up, but quantity went way down, and as a result their total effectiveness is less than the generation they're supposed to replace.

            Not sure why you think this.

            The 5th generation F-35 is a great airplane[1], and they've made 1300 of them since 2016.

            The 4th F-16 (also a great plane!) had 4600 built since 1976.

            [1] Yes, despite all the negative press and the amount of time it took to get right, it's a great plane. See eg https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/heres-what-ive-learned... where the editorializing is anti-F35 but the pilot who flew it only has positive things to say.

      • serf 9 hours ago
        It's a false comparison.

        How many MIG-25s flew over the borders of the United States mainland during the cold war?

        Yes the MIG-25 was a cheaper and more practical plane, but that wasn't the MO of the sr71.

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        • torginus 9 hours ago
          I am not the one making those. If you read an article about how a Lamborghini Aventador was faster than a Nissan GT-R, you would go 'well, duh, it costs 20x as much'.
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          • irishcoffee 8 hours ago
            A school bus costs 4-5x more than. GT-R, and I wouldn’t expect it to be faster.
      • LorenPechtel 8 hours ago
        The SR-71 wasn't trying to catch the MIG-25, it was trying to get away--and it worked. The U-2 proved vulnerable to filling the sky with cheap stuff--the missiles were ballistic by the time they got up there but when the sky was full of them the U-2 had no path to safety.

        The SR-71 couldn't be defeated by the level of missile spam that Russia was capable of, the MIG-25 couldn't get close enough to catch it and they didn't have a missile that could actually work up there. (You need more control surface up there, but down lower more control surface costs you performance.)

        (And the MIG-25 was a maintenance nightmare.)

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        • torginus 8 hours ago
          I suggest you read the book Skunk Works by Ben Rich, to get reliable account about the SR-71 and its relation to Soviet air defenses from the horse's mouth. Besides, it's genuinely well-written and enjoyable book
      • vsgherzi 9 hours ago
        These don’t seem comparable to me. The sr 71 was never meant to be mass produced or to head to head against a mig. The sr71 didn’t even have any guns it’s a spy plane. The sr 71 accomplished its goal with flying colors and spotted nuclear test sites and information on the Cuban missle crisis.

        The star fighter, or f15 or f22 would be more apt.

        TLDR special purpose tool vs general fighter cannot be compared

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        • nxm 9 hours ago
          During the Cuban Missle Crisis it was the U2, not the sr-71
      • mikkupikku 9 hours ago
        There were 32 SR-71s, 13 A-12s and 2 M-21s. That's 47 total I believe, making your figure off by about 300%, which incidentally is how much cooler the SR-71 is relative to the Mig, on account of it looking incredibly exotic and elegant instead of like a pointy sky tractor. Being faster is just icing on the cake.
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        • blitzar 8 hours ago
          Your figure of 300% is off by orders of magnitude for how much cooler the SR-71 is at 60 years of age than practically anything else that exists.
        • torginus 7 hours ago
          That's my point. The SR71 makes for a much cooler topic of discussion, but in a war, it matters how many planes you have. Even a thousand jets isn't really that much when fighting a country of millions.
    • calgoo 9 hours ago
      Or they bought a lambo, which is amazing, and goes really fast... but when you are out of gas, the Prius will keep going. :)
    • jongjong 7 hours ago
      Yes this is a great point. The great irony of the tech sector is that although tech creates efficiencies, the process by which tech is created is itself comically inefficient.

      Almost nobody, especially those working for government actually looks at a complex, expensive solution and says "We should simplify this and make it cheaper." The government is paying for a LOT of unnecessary complexity. I would say that's most of the cost of essentially every tech project the government funds.

      Reminds me of that 3-section meme about Starlink boosters showing how they simplified the design over time. This is the exception which proves the rule.

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      • throwaway85825 7 hours ago
        A lot of what you see was removed was just test sensors. The same happens in every engineering program, but no one else pretends that it's somehow innovation.

        It's like removing test code when you ship a binary.

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        • jongjong 5 hours ago
          I don't agree that it's not innovation. It always looks stupidly simple with hindsight to just remove unnecessary complexity, and yet it's extremely rare to see a team which actually does it right on the first go.

          Getting the design right the first time requires vision, foresight as well as a deep understanding of all relevant parts and priorities. Very few people can do it without hindsight.

          I'm an experienced software engineer and team lead who worked on a range of big complex projects over almost 2 decades and my experience with every single project (for which I wasn't the team lead) was that they were often way over-engineered. At least 95% of the time was spent on fixing unnecessary intermediate technical issues which the team itself created for itself.

          Even the sensor argument... Do you need so many sensors, monitoring and fallback mechanisms if every part of the system was designed to work within the simplest necessary constraints to begin with? My experience is that the answer is almost always; no. Once you accept that your design is flawed and needs runtime monitoring and fallbacks, any patch you add on top to correct the flaws provides tiny diminishing returns if any. Often, the additional complexity actually makes it more likely that your core mechanisms will fail.

          The safety mechanisms only end up making themselves useful by increasingly the likelihood of failure to begin with.

          My view on fallback mechanisms is that, in the event of failure of the main system, they shouldn't be so complex as to try to keep the system running as if nothing had happened; they should just provide graceful failure and sometimes they aren't needed at all. Just an error log is enough.

  • indubioprorubik 9 hours ago
    Pakistan invests in chinese air -defenses- gets steamrolled by india. Iran buys chinese air-defenses- gets steamrolled by Israel and the Us. Russia claimed the s400 was all the rage- and its going nowhere in ukraine. If propaganda claims where a currency, could you buy anything with all this?
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    • LorenPechtel 8 hours ago
      The S400 and the Patriot etc all suffer from the same problem: They only deny the enemy high elevation flight.

      Russian doctrine has been based around big, fast things going high. NATO doctrine has been about smaller, slower things going very low. Going low leaves you very vulnerable if you get too close to a defender, but there's no way there are defenders everywhere.

      An extreme example of the problem was the Moskova--big, fast missiles that couldn't see something coming in just above wavetop height. There were only two launchers that had any possibility of engaging and only time for one launch cycle--and that probably only if they already had a bird on the rails. (Exposed to the elements, rather than safe in the magazine.)

    • andriy_koval 9 hours ago
      air defense is much more complicated and difficult to build.

      Iranian cheap drones/cruise missiles are efficient from another hand.

    • bigyabai 8 hours ago
      Pakistan and Iran's imported missiles from China have worked as-advertised. To say nothing of the PL-15's recent success, China's land attack missiles have been a serious threat ever since the Silkworm ASCM hit the export market.
  • beloch 9 hours ago
    Whether these claims are real or not, they do illustrate one of the crazy things about technological progress. Capabilities that are difficult for states to develop eventually become something corporations can easily implement, and from there they become affordable for private citizens, first to buy, and then to DIY.

    Two obvious and concerning corollaries are that state capabilities eventually become easy to obtain for non-state terrorist groups and, later on, unbalanced individuals. Consider what ISIS would have done with these, and then think about what the unabomber would have done.

    I'd fully expect this particular company to face multiple hurdles in actually exporting any of these missiles. They might not be able to actually deliver at the quoted price-point. China might not permit it, due to the political blow-back. Israel and the U.S. obviously have an interest in making sure none of these missiles wind up in Iranian hands. The execs of this company are probably feeling a bit like a target has been painted on their heads right now.

    However, controlling technology like this is ultimately a game of whack-a-mole. If this company fails, gets regulated, decapitated, sucked up by the Chinese military, etc., ten other companies will pop up all over the place that can produce the same thing or better, cheaper. There's also a supply chain of components behind this company that can now export critical parts to those building their own. We've simply reached (or are about to reach) the point where missiles of this sort can be made very cheaply.

    Here's hoping missile defence gets better and cheaper fast.

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    • fasterik 9 hours ago
      Relevant philosophy paper: "The Vulnerable World Hypothesis" by Nick Bostrom [0].

      In that paper, Bostrom floats the idea that it might be in humanity's best interest to have a strong global government with mass surveillance to prevent technological catastrophes. It's more of a thought experiment than a "we should definitely do this" kind of argument, but it's worth taking the idea seriously and thinking hard about what alternatives we have for maintaining global stability.

      [0] https://nickbostrom.com/papers/vulnerable.pdf

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      • Barrin92 9 hours ago
        Cheap hypersonics don't threaten global stability, they threaten global hegemony. Which is really what I suspect irks most people afraid of them.

        We've seen a shift towards cheap offensive capacity that gives middle powers or even smaller actors the capacity to hit hegemons where it hurts, very visible in Ukraine and the Middle East now. This leads to instability only temporarily until you end up in a new equilibrium where smaller players will have significantly more say and capacity to retaliate, effectively a MAD strategy on a budget for everyone.

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        • fasterik 6 hours ago
          GP's point was broader than that, it was about technological progress and the possibility of terrorist groups or mentally ill individuals getting their hands on weapons that can easily kill millions of people. That's also what the paper I linked is about.

          Consider a future where individuals can relatively easily engineer a pathogen or manufacture a nuclear weapon. It's not hard to imagine how that would threaten global stability.

        • denkmoon 9 hours ago
          History would seem to show that hegemony is stability? Pax Romana etc
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          • vkou 8 hours ago
            Nothing about that time period was stable for Rome's neighbours and targets.

            Nothing about it was stable for the Romans either, with 10 major civil wars, and ~100 'minor' ones.

    • throwaway85825 7 hours ago
      The US won the cold war because the expensive defense programs were subsidized by the consumer market. The USSR lost because it wasn't. They cloned a lot of western ICs but never cost effectively because they only ended up in military products.
    • octoberfranklin 8 hours ago
      Yeah after seeing what tiny DIY "racing quadcopters" can do I am really amazed that we haven't seen a swarm of them used for a non-state-actor ("terrorist" or otherwise) attack.

      These things are way faster and more maneuverable than in the slaughterbots video. Those were like birds. These are like hummingbirds on meth.

      They are totally noncommercial hobbyist/DIY products -- there's no firmware lockdown or geofencing like on the commercial products. You can fab the PCBs yourself.

      Firmware controls on drones were always a silly strategy anyways.

  • yanhangyhy 5 hours ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1p64kki/reporter_...

    It reminds me of a funny piece of news. A noodle manufacturer in China, for some reason—maybe to make more money—secretly produced quite a number of small aircraft and even managed to sell many of them.

  • mpweiher 9 hours ago
    I see your $99,000 missile and I raise you a $10 intercept.

    Time for those laser-defenses to come up to speed.

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    • torginus 9 hours ago
      Lasers have very limited applications, they have an inherent line of sight limits, and even the most powerful ship mounted lasers that can do like 50kW, take a minute to boil a kettle of water away, more if you wrap it in tinfoil.

      And a shot might cost $10, the laser itself cost $$$, fits only in a cargo container, and requires crazy amounts of juice.

      Meanwhile a simple AA gun needs none of those things and can kill things just fine.

    • larkost 9 hours ago
      At this point no one is talking about using lasers to defend against hyper-sonic missiles (at least not anywhere near the target). All of the current laser systems require being focused on the targets for some amount of time to "burn though", which means they are only suitable for lower-speed targets (drones, cruise missiles, and some low-level ballistics).

      You would need to have significantly stronger lasers to try and "burn through" on something moving that fast.

      For completeness I should mention that there was quite some work on trying to get laser defenses against ballistic missiles on their "boost" phase (when they were launching, so slow enough to track a point in the missile), for example George Bush's "Star Wars" defense system. These would have been space based (some of the testing involved mounting on 747s, but I don't think that was ever an end-goal), but never made it near production.

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      • MisterTea 7 hours ago
        > You would need to have significantly stronger lasers to try and "burn through" on something moving that fast.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pumped_laser

        Still being researched. And yes, was part Regan's "star wars" Strategic Defense Initiative.

      • JackFr 8 hours ago
        Reagan, not Bush.
      • claytongulick 8 hours ago
        Or you could just shoot the missiles while it's raining, or in a dense fog.

        Laser defense system is a very expensive paperweight in those conditions.

    • piskov 9 hours ago
      You think of laser as in star wars cutting light saber.

      Actual lasers don’t do shit at those distances: it is used not to cut something in half but to blind, damage sensors, and what have you

    • 2OEH8eoCRo0 9 hours ago
      Lasers will probably only be used for point defenses against drones which isn't useless but they aren't the cheap future panacea everyone seems to think.
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  • londons_explore 9 hours ago
    The future of almost all industries is smart software (costing billions to make, but infinitely copyable) and cheap hardware.
  • givemeethekeys 9 hours ago
    Perhaps this will be a larger peace between hypersonic powers than the one we've had between nuclear powers.
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    • m000 7 hours ago
      Nuclear weapons gave us global stability (i.e. no WW3). Hypersonics, hopefully, will also give us regional stability.
  • sailfast 10 hours ago
    Do they hit their targets? Eventually with enough of them it’s not super important but… it does matter a bit.
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    • Loughla 9 hours ago
      According to the Google search I just did, an average American hypersonic missile costs between 13 and 41 million dollars.

      So that is between 131 and 410 of these. At that rate, and with enough disdain for my enemy and apathy for their people, I can just launch a shit load of them in the right direction and cross my fingers.

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      • serf 9 hours ago
        the concept of 'The average hypersonic..' makes me laugh.

        in actuality the concept of equating real life dollars to defense budgets makes me laugh, too. It's not really a money thing, it's a production thing; and even if it were to be considered as a money thing the values involved in no way reflect a real life value.

        It's like the NASA hammer story/packard commission. They're not going to say no to a 435 dollar hammer versus a zillion dollar project, but it's not actually a 435 dollar hammer.. .

        Similarly a 41 million dollar weapon only costs that much until a wartime powers clause forfeits your factory to state production..

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        • m000 7 hours ago
          > Similarly a 41 million dollar weapon only costs that much until a wartime powers clause forfeits your factory to state production.

          I seriously doubt such clauses still exist today. The entrenchment of the MIC in the US political structure is so deep and stretches for so long, that they have probably managed to avoid having such clauses by now. After all, that's their obligation to their shareholders.

          Also, the more high-tech the weapon, the more complex and fragile are its supply chain logistcs. So, scaling up the production of high-tech weapons is much harder, especially in wartime.

    • supermdguy 9 hours ago
      > Nobody knows yet the true capabilities of the missile, but it doesn’t matter. The accuracy doesn’t matter very much, the payload doesn’t matter very much. If it’s launched at a certain target in Tel Aviv, it still is going to hit something in Tel Aviv. The Israelis have no choice but to attempt an intercept, and will spend millions to do so

      Sounds like the massive price disparity more than makes up for any accuracy issues

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      • bluGill 8 hours ago
        iron dome is about $100k to intercept according to wikipedia. Millions is off by an order of magnatude. I suspect they can make it cheaper with scale as well.
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        • bigyabai 8 hours ago
          $100k is the cost of the low-speed ~mach 2.2 Tamir interceptor, which is effective against shells and rockets but not going to intercept a maneuvering mach 7 glide body.
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          • XorNot 7 hours ago
            There is absolutely no way anyone is producing a manoeuvring mach 7 missile for $100,000 though.

            The term "hypersonic" is incredibly overloaded.

      • irishcoffee 9 hours ago
        Clearly accuracy does matter. I just tried to throw a rock from my back yard to Tel Aviv, I missed terribly.
    • FpUser 9 hours ago
      >"Do they hit their targets?"

      Are you sure you want to find out?

  • srean 10 hours ago
    What seems to be the problem with their S300 clones? Anyone knows ? Easy to jam I suppose.
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    • torginus 9 hours ago
      There's no 'S-300' as such, there are sets of fire control, target acquisition and tracking radars, and various types of missiles, each of which can be upgraded, and mixed and matched to some degree, with some combinations being up to the S-300 standard or better.

      The closest thing to a standardized variant is the one installed on ships.

      It's a crazy variety of hardware out therem and one of the most dangerous things about SAMs, that a lot of the old Soviet missile stock is passively guided, so pairing a decades old missile sitting in storage with a state of the art radar makes it relevant even today.

    • esseph 10 hours ago
      Air defense works in layers where each layer often covers for another. S300 is good, but it's just one piece of a useful anti air defense strategy.
    • DetroitThrow 10 hours ago
      S300 is very good AA, but in practice modern SEAD with a sizeable number of planes can outrange them and they're not great at protecting themselves. We saw this in India-Pakistan and seeing this again in Iran-USA. You can see more of a stale mate when they aren't getting outranged in Ukraine-Russia.
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      • srean 9 hours ago
        I am talking about the Chinese clones, not the original (is there a difference ?).

        As you mention they did not fare very well in the India-Pakistan conflict.

  • mikrotikker 1 hour ago
    Will this be like the time that Saudi Arabia bought a Chinese laser defense system to stop drone attacks on its oil infra only for it to be incredible ineffective?
  • joe_mamba 10 hours ago
    Damn, can you imagine how quickly Aliexpress orders are gonna arrive now?
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    • abdusco 8 hours ago
      They will just get stuck at the customs :(
  • blipvert 8 hours ago
    If it’s not five nines then I’m not interested.
  • ranger_danger 10 hours ago
    If they're that cheap they can probably afford to cry wolf with them. Get people used to seeing unarmed missles flown in to random places, where the possible damage doesn't justify trying to shoot them down, then suddenly start putting explosives onboard.
  • vfclists 8 hours ago
    What is its weight, what is its payload and what is the cost of the fuel needed to propel it to hypersonic speeds?
  • carabiner 9 hours ago
    Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41305736

    No idea why a story about a YC company was flagged.

  • FpUser 9 hours ago
    >"A Chinese company is in production of a hypersonic missile, with a sticker price comparable to that of a luxury sedan"

    Well they've perfected manufacturing at scale. I see no surprise here.

  • 0x4e 10 hours ago
    Amazing! Yet another life destroying invention. What could go wrong?
  • theturtle 7 hours ago
    [dead]
  • belter 8 hours ago
    [dead]
  • lejalv 10 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • ck2 10 hours ago
    when China take Taiwan there's not a single thing the world is going to be able to do about it

    they use thousands of fishing boats to practice blockades

    they are building massive oil reserves and getting most of population into electric vehicles

    let's just hope they wait to next decade and not like 2028

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    • epistasis 9 hours ago
      Attacking and occupying a distant island in this age is getting more difficult, not easier. Look at the Black Sea, where Russia's remaining ships cower in fear in port, as they try to avoid super cheap marine drones. Massive missile attacks on a country can only do so much damage, and they harden the population against the aggressor.

      If Taiwan has been paying attention, and I don't doubt they are in an age when it's becoming clear the US is a paper tiger that will never protect them, they are well prepared to handle a good chunk of their own defense, using the brain trust they have inside their nation. They have everything they need for their own defense now.

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      • bluGill 8 hours ago
        Tiawan politics is interesting. from what I can tell those in power a an alliance of those who want China to take over with those who don't think China will try because they are friends. The president is worried but his party doesn't have power.
    • yogibear678142 9 hours ago
      People thought the same on Iran, untouchable. China has the same air defense and tech as Iran, not effective in real world situations.

      Blockades go both ways. China is energy dependant so very vulnerable to blockade response by the US and Japan. A few choke points make it easy, the ocean is not open ended.

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      • dragonelite 8 hours ago
        Well to this day China is getting Iranian energy. This naval blockade is a relic of a past long gone. When you have eyes in the sky and pin point accurate missiles. The US can't even block or free the straight of Hormuz.

        Also China is friendly with Russia they have land border so they can build pipelines.

      • eunos 9 hours ago
        > China has the same air defense and tech as Iran

        Lmao, quantitatively and qualitatively China is more than an order of magnitude bigger

  • LorenPechtel 8 hours ago
    Hypersonic has a big weakness--good luck building a seeker that can function hypersonic. And most of that flight will be effectively outside the atmosphere--no midcourse adjustments. If you're standing still that's irrelevant, but if you can move that's a big issue. And how many Chinesium rocket motors will explode on ignition, blowing up whatever is doing the shooting.
  • creantum 10 hours ago
    If they’re half as good as the robot I saw today in china slapping that kid id get a few
  • code_biologist 10 hours ago
    Chat, is this real? I've seen this guy pop up on youtube. I assume he's a Chinese state mouthpiece as he's a westerner in the mainland with a very pro-China spin (substack recommended the other posts below), but I'm curious how strong the factual basis for this reporting is.

    China's factories are in another world - Mar 23, 2025

    Chinese factories build fire trucks for under $400,000 in six weeks. In the US, it's $2 million in 4 years - Apr 19, 2025

    Iran is blowing up $500 million radars. China's export bans mean they are gone forever. - Mar 16, 2026

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    • anon7000 10 hours ago
      Good question. I think China is undoubtedly far better than the US at advanced, cheap mass-production. So wouldn’t be surprising they could do that for the military too. Not to say the US couldn’t get better.
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      • rhubarbtree 10 hours ago
        Better than the US at producing almost anything at this point. There are a few tiny islands of advantage left for the US in advanced engineering but they won’t last.

        Prediction: China will win the new race to the moon for this very reason.

      • bamboozled 9 hours ago
        This is basically what made the USA a military super power in the first place? At least it's what made them so powerful during WW2 and I guess beyond.
    • DetroitThrow 10 hours ago
      There's a few of these guys that make posts about technology that doesn't materialize after a few years, they can be ignored. There are plenty of pro-China observers that offer grounded analysis of Chinese military-industrial base out there that don't make claims that China has unobtainium technology. /r/LessCredibleDefence has a shortlist of these propagandists.
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      • fooker 10 hours ago
        Yeah it's certainly unimaginable that the civilization that invented gunpowder, cannons, guns, rockets a thousand years ago can make it for cheap now :)

        'Hypersonic' missile makes it sound like it's alien technology, no it's solid boosters that do not follow the usual ballistic trajectory with a computer from 1970.

        The raw materials cost less than half of a standard car.

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        • justin66 9 hours ago
          I've only read a few short blurbs about this. What makes you think the booster doesn't follow a normal ballistic trajectory?
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          • sgc 9 hours ago
            That's pretty much the entire point of what people are calling hypersonic missiles. All ballistic missiles fly at hypersonic speeds. The advance is being able to do so at low altitude with maneuverability.
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            • larkost 8 hours ago
              You are correct, but I should point out that Russia has described its Kinzhal missiles as hypersonic, when they are really more of a traditional ballistic missile fired horizontally. So very fast (Mach 10), but not as maneuverable as what the U.S. has been calling hypersonic.

              Since the original story here does not provide many details, we can't know which side of that fence this falls on (assuming it is real).

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              • fooker 8 hours ago
                Kinzhals being intercepted all the time could also be propaganda or missile defense having progressed more than publicly known.

                It's not a great idea in war to assume your enemy is incompetent (even when they are).

        • esseph 10 hours ago
          "no it's solid boosters that do not follow the usual ballistic trajectory"

          Hypersonics do not. They are extremely fast and extremely low flying.

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          • fooker 8 hours ago
            No, hypersonic is a marketing term here that indicates 'difficult to intercept'.

            It does not imply anything about speed, just automatic or controlled maneuvering later in the stage than normal missiles do.

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            • esseph 8 hours ago
              The very definition of hypersonic requires at least Mach 5 in terms of speed.

              sigh

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              • fooker 7 hours ago
                We have had mach 5 missiles for about 60-80 years now, that's not what the novelty is.
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                • esseph 4 hours ago
                  Mach 5, high maneuverability, inside the atmosphere. Normally a non-ballistic trajectory. That's been the goal for a very long time.

                  https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archive...

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_weapon

                  Do you have something to add to this discussion?

                  We just redoing definitions, or what?

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                  • fooker 2 hours ago
                    > Mach 5, high maneuverability, inside the atmosphere.

                    Out of these, Mach 5 and inside the atmosphere have been doable for several decades. Pretty much all countries that make missiles can make missiles with these two characteristics.

                    My point, which you seem to either misunderstand or deliberately misrepresent, is the other one - "maneuverability" - being the distinguishing factor for what we call hypersonic missiles. That makes these difficult to defend against.

                    Think of it like calling humans hyper-limbed animals, but limbs being not what really distinguishes humans from, say, chimpanzees.

    • nclin_ 10 hours ago
      You don't have to assume: He seems to provide ample detailed western sources to back up his claims in every video.

      Perhaps it'd be more difficult for him to broadcast if he had an anti-china perspective, but the content itself seems legitimate.

      [-]
      • magicalist 9 hours ago
        > He seems to provide ample detailed western sources to back up his claims in every video

        Does he? The only sources seem to be a CNSpaceflight tweet from last november of a promo animation from the missile company, and a South China Morning Post article that is just quoting commentators on Chinese state TV talking about the the possible capabilities of the missiles.

        The other sources (someone else's substack that's sourced from a December article[1] from The Independent, and two articles on "interestingengineering") all just quote the same animation and commentators.

        [1] https://www.the-independent.com/asia/china/china-hypersonic-...

      • kube-system 10 hours ago
        China does keep close tabs on foreign bloggers in their country (especially over the past decade or so), and anything remotely nonpositive does get people visits from police or worse. There is a huge chilling effect, even for people who mostly do have positive things to say.